Ghost encounter?

[Murfreesboro]

Oh, science and religion: I am impatient with Christians who wish to vilify science, or who are just in general anti-intellectual. I think our reason is a gift, and we have used it to improve our lives in many ways. I do not think it can tell us everything, because spiritual matters are suprarational. Reason is not capable of comprehending them. I have an absolute belief in a Creator and in intelligent design. I don't think any scientific experiment can disprove that, because scientific experiments themselves require intelligent design.

[MauEvig]

I may respond more indepth to each thought here later, but since you all took the time to share your thoughts and beliefs, I hope you won't mind if I share mine in more depth. I agree that people can have respectful conversations about beliefs and the afterlife, and I've found my own is constantly evolving.
My beliefs take into account different religious perspectives and beliefs, but like you all I was raised in a Christian background. I come from a unique family background as well, my great-grandfather was a Jewish man whose family escaped persecution in Russia long ago. He ended up marrying a Christian woman and converted to Christianity. My Orthodox Jewish ancestors who frowned upon this had a funeral for him. My grandmother would later be raised in the Christian faith. She's so religious though that she'd up right tell you that "Halloween is of the devil." I was VERY surprised that at one time long ago, before she became the fanatical religious person she was, actually had Halloween parties. This was before I was born and you can IMAGINE my surprise!
My other grandmother, the one I used to live with when I posted as "DemonSlayerMau" is still pretty religious in her own right and will tell you the same thing. But I never saw Halloween as evil, I loved it, embraced it and thought it to be one of the most fun holidays ever. How is dressing up in costumes and passing out candy evil? Ridiculous! Black cats get a bad enough of a rap as it is and have found an association with Halloween, but I've chosen to reclaim it due to my love of cats and Halloween, making these mysterious loveable creatures the best part of my Halloween decorating. My cats, black, tabby, calico, tuxedo, all five of them bring me good luck. And my black cat? The silliest thing in existence.
Thankfully none of my grandmothers think black cats themselves are evil, but simply choose not to associate with Halloween. That's fine. At least they aren't delving into harmful superstitious nonsense.
But I digress. Religion can be used for both good and bad, but I don't embrace religion myself of any kind. Instead, I have my own beliefs and I'm OK with that. I think this may have been partly due to the pushy nature of my grandmothers that I shied away from being a Christian and told myself I didn't want a pastor telling me how to live my life.
But that SAID, I still believe in God and simply cannot embrace the idea that he (or she?) doesn't exist. Evolution has always bothered me because deep down, I can't imagine any living creature, humans included, that wasn't lovingly crafted and made. What's the point of our existence if all we are to do is live just to survive, die and cease to exist? I've eventually grudgingly accepted evolution due to the evidence, but I've resided to the idea that maybe God is the guide behind evolution or there is some kind of spiritual force behind it.
When I look in the night sky and see how amazing all of the planets, stars and moons are, and that includes the new scientific discovers of exoplanets, I can't imagine there's nothing behind it. God perhaps, or many Gods, or simply a spiritual entity, but I think there HAS to be something and this can't be it.
I do think evolution though did first spark my fear of death, if we "evolved from monkies" (I know that's not necessarily how evolution itself works, I have a better understanding of it now, but for argument's sake I'll just use that term) what does it say about the Bible, Adam and Eve and creation? What about Heaven and Hell?
But I think the truth is we really don't know what's going to happen. But since we have NDEs and as was discussed earlier, different people around the world experience NDEs. And I will find that many religions do speak a similar message, be good to each other, treat others with respect and kindness, etc. Anyone treating people badly deserve punishment. If you look closely at Buddha's teachings and the teachings of Jesus, they are quite similar.
So here's what I think the afterlife is like (And I could be totally wrong, and that's ok...these are just my thoughts on it)...I think it's a combination of Heaven for exceptionally good people, Hell for exceptionally bad people (think awful people like Hitler, for instance. He has a special place in Hell IMO), Purgatory is for minor sins like larceny and theft who never redeem themselves, and a neutral afterlife that really isn't much different from being on Earth. But I also believe in reincarnation, because I think we're reincarnated not to become a drop in the ocean, but to continue to get a chance to get to Heaven. We get to restart the game of life, in metaphorical terms. We get several chances.
My takeaway is that the meaning of life is to learn, and we learn as much as we can in this life. Then we return to the spirit world to recap. Wicked people are punished, good people are rewarded.
And animals? I believe they have souls too but they don't have to go through this trial. Because I think animals are innocent, perhaps even more so than children, they go straight to Heaven.
But I agree with Headlesshorseman, I think children who become ghosts and don't get to crossover are lost and scared and don't know how to crossover. They may not understand what happened either, so I agree on that account as well.
I think the stories of reincarnation are too strong to ignore completely, but the stories of Heaven and Hell are as well. Purgatory is more of a Catholic ideology (one I wasn't raised in, I was raised in "Assembly of God" and/or Evangelical type Christianity, at least I think the two are similar or relate anyway) and I thought perhaps there's simply a place of rest in a neutral afterlife so we could recap what we learned from previous lives there. But eventually we'll get to Heaven after several trials, and I see Hell and Purgatory as both a place of punishment and cleansing before one is ready to be reincarnated. I don't think it's for eternity, as most Christians will teach.
But there you have it, and I hope nothing I've said is offensive or "provocative" as Murf might put it and I apologize if it is. But I've simply given a lot of thought to this, and just wanted to offer my two cents.
At the end of the day, I think we just choose our own path and whichever one makes the most logical sense. But I think as long as we're good people and do our best to help others, we'll get the best outcome in the hereafter.

[Murfreesboro]

Oh, when I called that first post provocative, I didn't mean it in a negative way. I just meant it was thought-provoking.

It's not orthodox Christianiry, but our family believes animals go to heaven. For one thing, every image of paradise in the Bible has animals in it. When my daughter pointed that out in her confirmation class, the Lutheran minister told her that was merely a "word picture" and was not to be taken literally. But that same guy is literal literal literal about the creation of the world taking 6 24-hour days. You'd better not speak of "days" as metaphorical in that context. So I'm thinking even he is inconsistent. He calls some passages literal and others "word pictures." Well, I can play that game, too. My reasoning is, people can genuinely love animals. Yet God is the source of all love, and our love is just a reflection of his. If we can love animals, how much more must God love them, since He made them?

I'm not a person who gets worked up over evolution. I believe God created the world, and if He's chosen to use an evolutionary method for His creation, I'm OK with it. However, I have read some genuinely provocative comments by creationists, things that will make you think twice. For example, evolutionary theory posits that things go from simpler to more complex structures over time, when all our experience tells us that things go from greater to lesser complexity. I think that's called the principle of entropy. I once read an essay by Tom Bethall called "Agnostic Evolutionists," in which he interviewed a group of scientists who refused to sign on to the theory of evolution. He asked the ring leader, "Do you believe in evolution or not?" The guy answered, "As a matter of fact I do believe in it. But isn't it interesting how you phrased that? Because when you ask me what I believe, you are asking me about faith, not science."

[MauEvig]

OK, that does make sense then when put that way and in that context.

But then again I'm always worried that going to offend someone. But in the same token, I try not to be offended by a whole lot anymore. I've been trying to chill out more as I get older. Some things still bother me, but other things don't and I just let people have their opinions. Saying I can agree to disagree takes a lot of weight off my shoulders in that regard.

It's true that there's descriptions of animals in paradise, and even a Bible verse on the subject:

Isaiah 11:6 NIV
"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them."

Paradise or Heaven is supposed to be such a peaceful place, that even the fiercest of predators will no longer need to hunt to survive but can simply rest easy next to prey animals. I think it's a beautiful sentiment. But I do take it to mean that animals have souls. Some Christians do, and some Christians don't. But personally I think because animals aren't capable of the same level of decision making, choices and rationality as adult human beings, they go straight to Heaven.

But as far as when our decisions count, I think there's a threshold of when we recognize the difference between right and wrong and can choose accordingly is when it starts to count. Because children and animals don't have that level of self-awareness (I do think animals are self aware, and obviously children I think after they turn a year old are) they can't be held accountable like adult humans can. Of course, our brains aren't fully developed until we're 25, so that might delve into some serious gray areas. I'll just leave it up to the man upstairs to decide, and try to be the best person I can be now.

I honestly don't know much about Lutheran Christianity. I've heard of it, and there's so many different branches that it's hard to keep track of the doctrinal differences between them. I know there's several main differences between Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity, but then there's several subsets between the three major players.

To give perspective, I was taught that grace, not works is what saves us and we have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior or we can't get into Heaven. But the issue there is...you can be a terrible person your whole life and then...get saved and boom you get into Heaven? I mean...if you believe that that's fine. Plenty of Pentecostals and Evangelicals I know are really good people with kind souls, and many will willingly step in to help you and be full of kindness and acceptance. But there's also the fanatical ones as well, and like your Lutheran Minister, teach a literal interpretation of the Bible.

But if you teach that every aspect of the Bible is literal...and not metaphorical or a parable...well...you could run into some serious doctrinal problems there.

I do like your reasoning too though. Why would a loving creator not want his creation to go to Heaven? That should go for animals as well, and reminds me of another Bible verse...

Matthew 6:26
"Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?"

Which, I know the verse is telling about how much God loves man, but it's also worth pointing out that God loves animals as well. I think the first man and woman were given a huge responsibility for caring for the animals of the garden, and they blew it.

But again, I don't have all the answers. And that's even assuming Christianity is the true religion. And it could be, or maybe it's part of the puzzle like I mentioned. It's hard to say. But I respect it if Christianity is the path you've chosen, and if it makes you a better person then that's all the better.

As for faith versus Science, that is a good point. I have faith I'm going to wake up the next morning. We all have faith in something.

I guess having been raised with such a literal interpretation of the Bible, it just felt like I had to choose one or the other. I rebelled against evolution for a long time. Atheists often felt like they were forcefeeding me these beliefs, but they also felt the same way about Christians. I think we can just respect each other's beliefs even if they aren't the same, and I'm OK with that.

I just say believe what you want, as long as you're a good person at the end of the day.

As for evolution versus entropy, well...it's complicated. Evolution is change over time, and even in small amounts that happens. It could be in the form of a genetic mutation, gaining or losing genes, etc. It's having a trait that's passed on that makes you more likely to survive in the given environment. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a guiding force somewhere in there. I mean, God must not have liked the dinosaurs all that much right? Or maybe the asteroid was just the angels playing baseball and...oops!

But in all seriousness, things do break down over time, that's true. Plants are the exception, they convert nutrients to energy from the sun and the soil. It still has to come from somewhere. But where did the plants come from? How did they obtain the chlorophyll necessary to create sugars that all life depends on? Then you have consumers and decomposers, and often what's decomposed is reused by plants. I mean, I have a compost and over time matter is broken down to be used again. And year after year my pumpkin seeds survive being broken down and come back to my benefit each Halloween.

I'll also add that it's populations, not individuals who evolve. Sure, an individual can contribute a gene to the pool, but if that gene is useful and contributes to the survival of the species, eventually it'll be passed onto it's descendants and eventually the population will have it. I suppose you could argue that it was God's will for something to evolve that way, as he was shaping animals into what would become the species alive today, including us humans.

[Murfreesboro]

Mau, I've had exposure to many different Christian denominations. My mother was raised Southern Baptist, which was probably the most influential denomination in the deep South when I was growing up. My father's family was Episcopalian, and my mother let me join his church as a gift to him when it became apparent he wasn't going to live (they had quarreled about which church I should attend, I think). I attended a Presbyterian college, which required three semesters of Bible study for graduation (two of OT, one of NT). While in college I was studying voice, and my voice teacher got me a little job as a chorister and soloist in a Methodist church, so of course I attended there regularly. And for some reason, several of my closest friends in college and grad school were Catholic, even though that's not so common in the South. I would attend church with them from time to time. Finally, I married a Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is a more conservative branch of that church. So I've made the rounds!

I think salvation by grace is an orthodox position in most denominations, though there is always a tug of war between grace and works (faith without works is dead). But you're not supposed to be able to save yourself by good works. Sincere repentance can be rewarded with salvation right up until the point of death. So, yes, even Hitler could theoretically be saved, IF he had sincerely repented of his actions in the bunker, though there's no evidence I know of that he ever did. The age of accountability varies from one denomination to another. Those which practice infant baptism generally hold that even an infant has "original sin," which I understand to mean the propensity to sin. But I guess those who hold with later baptisms believe that people must become conscious of their sinful nature before anything is held against them. I once had to explain to a Baptist lady I knew about the rite of confirmation. Those churches that baptise infants always have a later rite of confirmation, so there's always a moment when the young person has to declare himself a believer before the congregation. It just doesn't happen at baptism.

I wanted my kids raised Lutheran, even though I've never officially joined that church, because they have a very extensive confirmation course. The kids spend one year studying the Bible, and the other studying Martin Luther's small catechism, which is basically just a formal theological statement of the basic Christian faith, and not very different from one denomination to the next. I figured that, once they were grown, they would be making their own decisions about what they believed, because everybody does that, ultimately. But I didn't want to them to reject Christianity just because they never really understood what it was.

[TheHeadlessHorseman]

I want to thank both of you for your posts here, I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on these topics. There's a lot of ground to cover here, and I'm going to try to cover as much as I can. Also, I was not offended by anything you said MauEvig, as I'm a very open minded person, and I welcome everybody's opinion.

The good thing is that it was Murf that started this thread, so we didn't have to hijack another thread this time.

Heaven and Hell - When I was studying the various religions in my early 20s I was surprised to come across some religions that had absolutely no concept of Heaven and Hell, they simply believed that we are born, we live, we die, and we rot, and that's it. I found that belief to be sad for many reasons, mainly because it doesn't really offer much hope to any followers of those religions, and because it's also a negative way to look at life.

I think the general consensus by most people and religions is that kids automatically get a ticket into paradise because of their innocence. I believe this is true, and what I understand from a few different religions is that a person remains clean and innocent until they lose their virginity, so technically speaking, a Nun that remains a virgin her whole life also gets in instantly, of course, her life of faith and devotion helped as well. This is also the same thing with the rapture, when the kids and the righteous adults on Earth are sent to Heaven in a instant, leaving the rest of us to try to survive for at least 7 years until the final battle of Armageddon.

I have read multiple different versions of the Bible, and while the core story remains the same, they each vary slightly in how they tell the same story, this can range from minor changes to a completely different interpretation of the original message. These changes depend greatly on the particular beliefs of the people that publish their version of the Bible, as more modern versions change the writings to accompany modern lifestyles and societal changes.

Some of the biggest changes I have read in different versions are with the Book of Genesis, and the Book of Revelation. In particular, I have read 2 very different versions of the Book of Revelation, specifically pertaining to the battle of Armageddon and The Last Judgment. In one version it says that the wicked, along with Death and Hades, will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. The other version says that after the battle everyone will be forgiven and saved, even the wicked that stood against good.

So some very different messages there, I know there are people that believe that they will be forgiven regardless of their actions so they deliberately live a life of evil. I have watched documentaries on serial killers that repent and believe they are forgiven, some of them might actually mean it, but some of them are just desperate and most likely mocking the faithful. Who knows if Jesus will forgive the wicked when it's said and done? Is it fair to those that lived a righteous life?

On a side note for MauEvig, there is a funny scene in the movie Little Nicky that shows the punishment Hitler receives in Hell. Also, your grandmother, the one that doesn't like Halloween, reminds me of Kathy Bates in the movie The Waterboy, where she would say that everyone was the Devil. It's interesting that both movies were starring Adam Sandler.


Animals - I absolutely believe that animals have souls, and that our pets that have passed on are waiting in the afterlife for us. I know that some religions don't hold the same belief, and I think that is a unreasonable way to look at it, as The Book of Genesis clearly states that the animals and insects were created before us humans. I have seen how animals behave, they have intelligence and feelings, they care for their young, and they fear death just as humans do. We have a cat and a dog, and we don't think of them as just our pets, but as members of the family.

Just look at how smart animals are, and I don't mean just pet tricks, I'm talking about their natural instincts, the way they can detect changes in the weather, sniff out cancer, how birds know to fly south for the winter, and some animals can apparently even sense a supernatural presence. They know how to do what every animal that came before them did without ever being taught what to do, but they know it instinctively. That is by design.

As for insects, yes, some of them are disgusting and ugly, but they are still living creatures. Without insects our ecosystem wouldn't survive, without bees to pollinate fruit trees certain fruits would be gone for good, and no bugs means that the animals that eat them would starve, and that would start a chain reaction that would be very bad for people. When I was a kid, I killed a lot of bugs, but now I can't bring myself to harm one, I just scoop them up and bring them outside.

I can honestly say that I haven't ever killed a animal though, yes, I do eat meat, but I haven't ever gone out there and killed to get dinner, and I've only been fishing once when I was a kid and we didn't catch anything, we just sat there the whole day and talked. I guess what I'm trying to say is that every life is important, the insects and animals were created and put here for a reason, just like we humans were.


Reincarnation - I mentioned it here because I think it should be discussed with the other theories about the afterlife. I don't know where I stand on this subject though, there is a overwhelming amount of evidence that supports this theory. I think the most famous case involved a girl that claimed she was reincarnated and Mahatma Gandhi led a investigation into her claims and he agreed that her memories of a previous life were genuine based on the evidence they found.


Space and the Universe - I think it's impossible that in this vast universe we are alone. 60 years ago we were limited to thinking that our solar system was the only thing in creation, but with the new discoveries being made every year, we now know that space and the galaxies are endless, and the discovery of intelligent life will happen eventually. I haven't ever seen a UFO, but I think it's possible that life does exist out there, I know some religious people are against the idea that aliens exist, and I think that's a very narrow point of view.

If you believe that our creator gave us life and created everything in existence, not just our planet and solar system, but the whole universe, the planets and the stars, and everything that we have yet to discover, then it would be ignorant to assume that our creator didn't give the same gift of life to other worlds out there as well. If we really are alone in the universe, then that would be a sick cosmic joke. I leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors on the subject.

Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. - Arthur C. Clarke

[Murfreesboro]

Ah, I've heard that quote used in a movie, The Exorcism of Emily Rose. It's a good one (the quote and the movie).

I haven't read as many different Bible versions as you have, only the King James and, currently, the English Standard Version, which claims to be very faithful to the original texts. I haven't read those extraordinarily divergent texts you mention. But we do have an ongoing discussion in our family about the sentence "The love of money is the root of all evil " (1 Timothy 6:10), because it pretty obviously is not true. Serial killers, child predators, and rapists are not motivated by the love of money. I noticed that in this modern translation, they translate it as "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil," which makes more sense. I happen to know from medieval lit that the Vulgate translation is "cupiditas radix malorem est," cupidity is the root of evils. Now that is an interesting one, since, in medieval theology, God's love, charitas, is the engine running the universe. Cupiditas is its corruption. So evil, by that theology, has no independent existence. It is the perversion of God's love, which can take many forms. I think that is profound. (My daughter, who has translated the original passage in Greek class, tells me the word for "money" in that passage is unique--it appears nowhere else at all, so there is clearly something going on with it. She has her own theories.)

My husband has always been fascinated with the idea of alien encounters and has a strong belief that we are being visited by creatures from somewhere else. I'm not sure what I think, but I will say that the idea of space aliens does not upset my theology. I figure if they exist, God made them, too.

Re the deathbed conversions of conspicuously evil people, I'd say that the sincerity of those people is up to God's judgment. There are a few parables about the seeming unfairness of this--the prodigal son, and the workers in the vineyard come to mind (in the latter, the people who work one hour get paid as much as the ones who work all day). To us, nothing seems fair about this. But the parables suggest that it's just not our place to judge how God distributes His mercies. If we're ok, we shouldn't question it.

Re the intelligence of animals, I agree with you that they are extraordinary and a great blessing in our lives. There is something that sets us apart from them, though. My mother once pointed out to me (something she'd read) that people are sometimes compared to animals, but the comparison is never perfect. We are always either better or worse than animals. We are never the same. I think it is maybe that animals, for all their understanding and emotional life, are not capable of sin. That would suggest to me that they are in no need of salvation, as we are. They probably get an automatic pass to Heaven.

My husband has said he thinks what sets us apart from animals is our ability to imagine a future different from our present. A beaver or a dog, etc, is not going to live any differently from the way its ancestors did, but people change things all the time. Of course, this also means we have foreknowledge of our own mortality. Animals clearly fear immediate dangers to their lives, but I doubt they meditate on their mortality the way we do. One of the poets I studied in my dissertation years ago (Rochester) linked this foreknowledge to our fall in the garden. Maybe he was right.

[Murfreesboro]

Re virginity and innocence: I don't buy this one. Yes, young virgins are "innocent" of sexual knowledge, the kind you get only from experience. But I think a celibate person is still capable of sin. Young teens and tweens can be hateful toward each other, spread mean rumors, etc. No one at any age is exempt from the sin of envy (covetousness). Even idolatry is quite common, although I didn't realize that until I was middle aged. I used to think the commandment against idols and graven images was strictly about worshipping statues of pagan gods, which not very many people do nowadays. But I have come to realize that there can be idols of the heart, and these are real temptations. Even love of family can become an idol if it comes between you and the love of God. Far from being a remote, out of date commandment, that one may be one of the toughest to follow.

[TheHeadlessHorseman]

You bring up a interesting point about kids, while I agree with you that the behavior you mentioned is bad, I think that they are minor offences that can be forgiven when compared to other kids that have done far worse in this world. I watched a documentary awhile ago about psychotic kids, there were stories about young kids that commit crimes and even murder, I remember one story about a 8 year old girl that went from foster home to foster home, and in every home she went to she would kill the pets that were there, she killed cats, birds, rodents, and reptiles. It wasn't until she tried to kill a younger kid that they finally put her in a institution. I would like to think that nobody is born evil, but you have to wonder how evil can infect someone so young, and what makes them that way.

It's been said that good and evil can't exist without each other, each of us is capable of doing evil but most of us choose to be good. There are many different stories through history about where death and evil came from, as I said before, I have read many different versions of the Book of Genesis, and some of them say that death and evil originated in the Biblical garden.

Some versions say specifically that Adam and Eve were told that they would die if they ate the fruit from the tree of life/tree of knowledge, while other versions don't mention them being told of death prior to eating the fruit. After they ate the fruit they immediately knew what shame was, and they were told their punishment was to endure suffering in life. After they had their children, Cain and Abel, Cain killed his brother out of jealousy, and so it was that the first child born into this world was a murderer.

In Greek mythology, Hesiod's works tell the story of Pandora's box, though the container mentioned in the original story was actually a jar, Pandora opened the jar left in her care, it contained sickness, death and many other evils which were then released into the world upon mankind. Hope alone remained inside, the lid being shut before she/it could escape. In later versions of the story, the jar didn't contain evil but blessings, which would have been preserved for humans if they had not been lost from opening the jar.

Animals and death - I agree that animals fear immediate danger, and they probably don't sit around and think about death, but there are certain species of animal that know when they are going to die, and they find a private place to pass away. It has also been proven that some animals actually mourn their dead similar to humans.

I had more to say, but it was a long day, I'll be back later.

[Murfreesboro]

The problem of evil is the big one, isn't it? It seems all philosophers grapple with it, and no one has been able to explain it to the satisfaction of everyone.

I do sometimes wonder about those psychotic kids you hear about occasionally. Where does that come from? It seems that many adult serial killers begin by tormenting animals as kids.

Our minister at church argues against classifying degrees of sin. Sin is sin, and all of it is equally repugnant to God. Of course we all think of murder as worse than, say, gossiping. But then, very few of us murder, whereas a great number of us gossip, envy, etc. Those sins we often think of as "lesser" are the ones that we commit most often.

[TheHeadlessHorseman]

Well, evil can take on many different forms, such as demonic possession like in the movie The Exorcist. There have been plenty of movies on the subject, and some of them are based on true stories, but the movies usually put in fictional elements to make them more entertaining to audiences. The Catholic church says that demonic possession is real, and there have been multiple cases reported through history, so there must be something to the stories.

I also want to touch on something that you mentioned in another thread regarding the birth of Christ being in Jun. I know that people have been debating about that for awhile, and very few people, that I know of, are on the same side of the argument that you are. Again, this debate can be traced back to different versions of the story, as well as how the story has been interpreted.

Some people say that the star that the 3 wise men saw was a sign that Christ was just born, and that it took the wise men 6 months to follow the star and they arrived in Dec. long after the birth.

While others say that the star was a sign that Christ was going to be born, and that he was actually born in Dec. and the wise men arrived just after the birth.

For the record, I agree with you on this one, but I guess it depends on what someone wants to believe. Around my area people are against the idea and won't even hear it.

[Murfreesboro]

Really? I guess I have been strongly influenced by the Bethlehem Star DVD I mentioned elsewhere. You can find all the info at that web site, even a posting of the DVD itself, if you're interested, at Bethlehemstar.com. I think that Larson guy has got it right. But even before I'd found that DVD, or it had even been made, I'd heard lots of people say that Jesus was most likely born in the spring, because of the shepherds' being outside all night. I'm not sure their sheep were even in the fields in the dead of winter. And it would be a strange time of year for the government to call the kind of census they mandated, making everybody travel back to ancestral homes. I guess what you've heard depends on which denominations you attend, or live among.


Yes, I do think demonic possession is a genuine thing, although it is important to distinguish between that and psychosis. Our minister has discussed certain protocols religious people have to discern the difference.

[MauEvig]

I think one of the biggest problems with evil itself (and good for that matter) is how so many things are open to interpretation and opinion. I think we can ALL agree that things like murder and theft (among other things) are definitely evil, and I think we can all agree that kindness and giving toward others is considered good. But the world is hardly black and white, and there's definitely some gray areas for certain. In some cases, evil is relative especially toward the current cultural climate. Some things that were acceptable 50 years ago aren't acceptable now, and vice versa. Things change.
If everyone agreed on what was good and what was evil down to the T, then I don't think there'd be a need for political debates.
But I think we can all agree that hurting people for the sake of hurting people is wrong and deserves to be punished.
But I won't get into politics.
Do I think demonic possession is real? Well, I think anything's possible. But I do agree with the Jewish belief that we create our own inner demons. I am glad your minister teaches a protocol that there's a difference between mental illness and demonic possession. It's sad though when mental illness is mistaken for demonic possession, and that's where things can get dangerous. People often assume individuals with autism or schizophrenia are possessed, but the reality is that they have a disorder of the brain that's causing the abnormal behavior. My cousin has schitzophrenia but grandma said she told the doctor she thinks he's possessed. The poor guy is also ... well...the PC term these days would be intellectually disabled. They called it something else back in the day that would be considered offensive nowadays. We suspect he could be autistic as well, and nowadays it's possible to be diagnosed with a dual diagnosis.
They say more people are diagnosed because we have better tools to diagnose people but...while that may be partially true I have my suspicions that other things may be awry. I could be opening a can of worms here, but I think it might be overdiagnosed these days. But sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between Autism Spectrum Disorder, and a mental illness like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Both have very similar symptoms. And ADHD also has some similarities with Autism...but it also has similarities with Bipolar disorder and other Mental illnesses. It's a tricky thing to get an accurate diagnosis and treatment that works for the individual person. It's not a one size fits all thing. And what makes it trickier is that many of these disorders or mental illnesses can be co-morbid. And if you have Autism, ADHD, Schitzophrenia, Tourette's or another "neurodivergence" it can increase the likelihood of developing a mental illness, and in many cases you can have more than one neurodivergence.

[Murfreesboro]

I wish I knew a little bit less about mental illness. My second son was diagnosed with Bipolar 1 (leans toward mania) in his mid-20s, which is why he still lives at home with us. He holds down a somewhat menial job at a grocery store, where they seem to value him. But he's a magna cum laude college grad (also an Eagle Scout), so it's a little frustrating to me what it's done to his life. Antipsychotic drugs keep him stable, but they can have scary side effects long term. When he tried to go off them maybe three yrs ago, he ended up back in the psych ward, so that's a no-go for him.

He's smart and a sweetly natured guy. I sometimes think his core issue is an anxiety disorder, but it's tough paying for the treatments that might benefit him without health insurance. At any rate, the bipolar thing really does seem to be some kind of brain chemistry imbalance, but I don't know why he was hit with that. I guess it's like wondering why someone gets cancer, though.

[MauEvig]

The sad thing about mental illness is that you could be wondering the rest of your life how it happened. In life we all experience different stimuli as we grow and learn. But we're also encoded with a set of genes. I think a combination of nature and nurture is often at work here, and certain events in life can turn on or off a gene in certain circumstances. Having a gene that might predispose someone to a mental illness doesn't necessarily mean they'll develop one and may go through their entire lives just fine. Unfortunately for others, certain traumas can affect people for the worse.
I'm so sorry to hear that your son is going through that. Bipolar is a hardship I wouldn't wish on anyone, and it can be challenging both on the person who has it and the people around them.
I actually thought I had bi polar once, long ago myself. I'm not sure what type specifically, but I always figured I had the rapid cycling type. But turns out that I don't.
It's possible he could also have an anxiety disorder that's co morbid with the bipolar. I wish the best for your son, and I hope one day he can get his life in order and he won't need the medication anymore. There are alternative therapies, which you can look into at your own risk.
It's hard to tell typing on a computer if anyone could be suffering from a mental illness sometimes.
You're right that it can feel like wondering how someone got cancer. Someone could exercise, never smoke, eat healthy and still get lung cancer. I think part of that is self blame, wondering what you could have done to prevent it from happening.
I have my own experiences with mental illness and it often feels like anxiety and depression sit like the proverbial angel and devil on my shoulders. I'm considering sharing my own story, but I think I'd prefer to take that to PM as I'm not sure I'm comfortable sharing everything just yet.