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MacPhantom wrote:ILMM thinks the reason I'm skeptical is because I haven't experienced the supernatural (the experience creates the belief). Spooky, on the other hand, thinks the reason I haven't experienced it is because I'm already skeptical, so even if something happened, I would be inclined to dismiss it as natural (the belief determines the interpretation of the experience). You two can fight amongst yourselves as to which of you is right.

I disagree and agree with them both.... on the premise of neutrality! (I was trying to be flip there...)

Actually, something that is "supernatural" is, in my opinion, something that happens or that is experienced by one of the 5-senses that cannot be explained by science. It is not normal. Obviously, this rules out things like optical illusions (and magic!) as well as the whole "I just know what I saw" factor because... well... frankly, even crazy people can see and hear things that aren't there.

I believe you're a skeptic because you haven't been presented with enough evidence to prove that there are things that cannot be explained by modern science. That's not to say you haven't experienced a paranormal event.... it just means that nothing has convinced you of the existence or presence of something supernatural.

Someone at another forum I read linked to the following videos that explains skepticism... where it doesn't create a paradoxical situation as described and quoted above.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MichaelShermer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

jadewik wrote:I believe you're a skeptic because you haven't been presented with enough evidence to prove that there are things that cannot be explained by modern science. That's not to say you haven't experienced a paranormal event.... it just means that nothing has convinced you of the existence or presence of something supernatural.

I think you have it just exactly right. Much like my atheism, it is of a more passive nature than an active one. Atheists can generally be divided into two groups; what are called strong atheists, or those who say that "I believe god does not exist", and weak atheists, who say "there are no gods in which I believe". The difference between the two positions seems subtle at first, but it is actually rather vast. It determines where the burden of proof lies; with the person who claims existence, or the person who claims non-existence. The same applies to my position on the supernatural world. I don't so much claim that the supernatural world doesn't exist, as I claim that there are no supernatural occurrences in which I believe. It frees me from the burden of proving something impossible to prove (that nothing supernatural has ever, or could ever happen), and leaves open the possibility for evidence that could convince me such things exist, even while acknowledging that no such evidence has yet been presented.

Update on the hotel in the dare.... My brother says the story was part of a ghost walk he did in Gettysburg last year, so he's gonna try to get in touch with the tour company and find out which hotel it was. Maybe I'll take a ghost walk this spring... in all the years I've been going to G-burg, I've never yet done that...

I think it would be abnormal to not feel a sense of hopelessness or sadness in an insane asylum...

I wouldn't know. I have never been to your house.

Well, based on MY experience I KNOW that we aren't alone. I don't want to make someone try to believe if they have never experienced it themselves. I think it's very selfish to think we are the only ones in existence.

ilovemichaelmyers wrote: I think it's very selfish to think we are the only ones in existence.

I'm not really sure what you mean.

MacPhantom wrote:

ilovemichaelmyers wrote: I think it's very selfish to think we are the only ones in existence.

I'm not really sure what you mean.

I believe that there are other life forms (I don't think they look abnormal like green alien monsters, I think they look just like us), there are things that we can't explain like crop circles, Stonehenge, etc. that normal people couldn't have created. I think that we are still here even though we die, just on a different level. I don't think we are ever truly alone even when the room is empty to us. I know it sounds crazy but I think we are being watched all the time, I think living is a challenge every time you go through it and makes us stronger with each life to perfect our soul. I believe that when someone commits suicide, they come right back to be born again with the same problems to perfect what they didn't achieve in their last life. I believe strongly in reincarnation, I don't think it is the end when we die, we just change bodies. I have experienced two events in my life that I could never explain and still think about every day, it wasn't normal and not coincidence or my imagination. I know in my heart what I felt and saw and nobody can tell me otherwise.

Everyone but the Scots. They're too stubborn to accept help.

I think it's interesting how easily we transitioned from talking about ghosts and spirits to talking about life on other planets. Considering the size of the universe, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was life out there, but again, I'll reserve judgment until I see concrete evidence. I would be less surprised to discover aliens exist than that ghosts do, because aliens, should they exist, would fit into the framework of the material world.

I think arrogance and selfishness are far more harsh a set of terms than should be applied to a lack of belief in aliens or ghosts. I think they are commonly used because a non-believer may seem to be putting himself at the center of the universe, or suggesting that, in the absence of extraterrestrial life forms or life after death, his own life is the most important thing. I can't speak for all non-believers, but personally I see it as the opposite. I feel I'm not particularly important at all; certainly no more important than a thousand year old tree, or a three day old insect. When my physical life ends, I don't believe I'm special enough to continue on afterward, in a heaven or a hell or reincarnated into a new body. I think my fate will be the same as a tree or a flea; my consciousness will cease, and my physical matter will break down into its component parts.

Because I don't believe in anything after, I assign more import to living and enjoying life now, as much as I can, but it certainly isn't motivated by selfishness or arrogance. And regardless of my personal lack of belief, I am extremely aware of the usefulness of belief, and have no interest in dissuading others of their deeply held convictions. I enjoy an academic debate, but I'm totally not into de-conversion.

So someone in your family is going to have to clean up a pile of scotch flavored haggis?

It's compostable.