What is happening to Halloween?

Discussion of general Halloween topics
dees473
Ghost
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:04 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by dees473 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm

As a parent I find that each year gets harder and harder to send my child off. I did find a couple of sites that offer safety tips.

http://www.mrcostumes.com/Halloween-Saf ... dy-W4.aspx

http://www.halloween-safety.com/

Murfreesboro
Halloween Master
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:56 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Murfreesboro » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:01 am

Well, for me, Christmas lost a lot of its magic when I no longer believed in Santa Claus. I still love Christmas, but it's a different feeling these days. To some extent I guess I can get that magic feeling back when I go to midnight church service at Christmas. "Magic" maybe isn't the right word for it, but religious mystery comes close.

For me, the "magic" of Halloween has a lot to do with the darkness and the lit pumpkins (as well as other lights in the night). And I love love love the costuming. Masquerade in the street is what it's all about for me.

ETA: Sorry, Dees. I didn't see your post. I never have "sent my kids off" on Halloween. I have always gone with them, as my mother did with me, years ago. Now this year, my daughter is 14. If she TOTs at all, she will most likely go with a group of her friends. So I probably won't be with them (that would be uncool). I might fret about it somewhat, but if it happens, I know they'll be in the other girl's neighborhood, and they will be in a large group.

User avatar
Pumpkin_Man
Halloween Master
Posts: 6767
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Pumpkin_Man » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:30 pm

Thanks, Kris. All Hallows Eve, is a very devout Catholic observance, and has been for centuries. Yes, there are pegan aspects to it, and yes, it originated with the druids, but all of my life, I celebrated Halloween, then wen to Mass on All Saints Day, and prayed for all my dearly departed loved ones on All Souls Day.

However, there is one point where I may disagree with. I was under the impression that Halloween as we celebrate here in the U.S. originated with the ancient Irish. Traditions like carving jack o'lanterns, Trick or Treat and dressing up on costumes were practiced by the Druids of Ireland. But I alro realize that a lot of countries celebrated some type of All Hallows Eve, and all of those traditions probably evolved at the same time as the holidays you refered to you in your post.

BUT, regardless of who "started" Halloween, it's still my favorite holiday, and it will allways be celebrated in my 100 year old, supposedly ghost inhabited house.

Mike


User avatar
TheHallow1
Haunt Master
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:20 pm
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by TheHallow1 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:47 pm

The basic history of Halloween: Halloween had its beginnings in an ancient, pre-Christian Celtic festival of the dead. The Celtic peoples, who were once found all over Europe, divided the year by four major holidays. According to their calendar, the year began on a day corresponding to November 1st on our present calendar. The date marked the beginning of winter. Since they were pastoral people, it was a time when cattle and sheep had to be moved to closer pastures and all livestock had to be secured for the winter months. Crops were harvested and stored. The date marked both an ending and a beginning in an eternal cycle.

The festival observed at this time was called Samhain (pronounced Sah-ween). It was the biggest and most significant holiday of the Celtic year. The Celts believed that at the time of Samhain, more so than any other time of the year, the ghosts of the dead were able to mingle with the living, because at Samhain the souls of those who had died during the year traveled into the otherworld. People gathered to sacrifice animals, fruits, and vegetables. They also lit bonfires in honor of the dead, to aid them on their journey, and to keep them away from the living. On that day all manner of beings were abroad: ghosts, fairies, and demons--all part of the dark and dread.

Samhain became the Halloween we are familiar with when Christian missionaries attempted to change the religious practices of the Celtic people. In the early centuries of the first millennium A.D., before missionaries such as St. Patrick and St. Columcille converted them to Christianity, the Celts practiced an elaborate religion through their priestly caste, the Druids, who were priests, poets, scientists and scholars all at once. As religious leaders, ritual specialists, and bearers of learning, the Druids were not unlike the very missionaries and monks who were to Christianize their people and brand them evil devil worshippers.

As a result of their efforts to wipe out "pagan" holidays, such as Samhain, the Christians succeeded in effecting major transformations in it. In 601 A.D. Pope Gregory the First issued a now famous edict to his missionaries concerning the native beliefs and customs of the peoples he hoped to convert. Rather than try to obliterate native peoples' customs and beliefs, the pope instructed his missionaries to use them: if a group of people worshipped a tree, rather than cut it down, he advised them to consecrate it to Christ and allow its continued worship.

In terms of spreading Christianity, this was a brilliant concept and it became a basic approach used in Catholic missionary work. Church holy days were purposely set to coincide with native holy days. Christmas, for instance, was assigned the arbitrary date of December 25th because it corresponded with the mid-winter celebration of many peoples. Likewise, St. John's Day was set on the summer solstice.

Samhain, with its emphasis on the supernatural, was decidedly pagan. While missionaries identified their holy days with those observed by the Celts, they branded the earlier religion's supernatural deities as evil, and associated them with the devil. As representatives of the rival religion, Druids were considered evil worshippers of devilish or demonic gods and spirits. The Celtic underworld inevitably became identified with the Christian Hell.

The effects of this policy were to diminish but not totally eradicate the beliefs in the traditional gods. Celtic belief in supernatural creatures persisted, while the church made deliberate attempts to define them as being not merely dangerous, but malicious. Followers of the old religion went into hiding and were branded as witches.

The Christian feast of All Saints was assigned to November 1st. The day honored every Christian saint, especially those that did not otherwise have a special day devoted to them. This feast day was meant to substitute for Samhain, to draw the devotion of the Celtic peoples, and, finally, to replace it forever. That did not happen, but the traditional Celtic deities diminished in status, becoming fairies or leprechauns of more recent traditions.

The old beliefs associated with Samhain never died out entirely. The powerful symbolism of the traveling dead was too strong, and perhaps too basic to the human psyche, to be satisfied with the new, more abstract Catholic feast honoring saints. Recognizing that something that would subsume the original energy of Samhain was necessary, the church tried again to supplant it with a Christian feast day in the 9th century. This time it established November 2nd as All Souls Day--a day when the living prayed for the souls of all the dead. But, once again, the practice of retaining traditional customs while attempting to redefine them had a sustaining effect: the traditional beliefs and customs lived on, in new guises.

All Saints Day, otherwise known as All Hallows (hallowed means sanctified or holy), continued the ancient Celtic traditions. The evening prior to the day was the time of the most intense activity, both human and supernatural. People continued to celebrate All Hallows Eve as a time of the wandering dead, but the supernatural beings were now thought to be evil. The folk continued to propitiate those spirits (and their masked impersonators) by setting out gifts of food and drink. Subsequently, All Hallows Eve became Hallow Evening, which became Hallowe'en--an ancient Celtic, pre-Christian New Year's Day in contemporary dress.

Many supernatural creatures became associated with All Hallows. In Ireland fairies were numbered among the legendary creatures who roamed on Halloween.

Virtually all present Halloween traditions can be traced to the ancient Celtic day of the dead. Halloween is a holiday of many mysterious customs, but each one has a history, or at least a story behind it. The wearing of costumes, for instance, and roaming from door to door demanding treats can be traced to the Celtic period and the first few centuries of the Christian era, when it was thought that the souls of the dead were out and around, along with fairies, witches, and demons. Offerings of food and drink were left out to placate them. As the centuries wore on, people began dressing like these dreadful creatures, performing antics in exchange for food and drink. This practice is called mumming, from which the practice of trick-or-treating evolved. To this day, witches, ghosts, and skeleton figures of the dead are among the favorite disguises. Halloween also retains some features that harken back to the original harvest holiday of Samhain, such as the customs of bobbing for apples and carving vegetables, as well as the fruits, nuts, and spices cider associated with the day.

Today Halloween is becoming once again and adult holiday or masquerade, like mardi Gras. Men and women in every disguise imaginable are taking to the streets of big American cities and parading past grinningly carved, candlelit jack o'lanterns, re- enacting customs with a lengthy pedigree. Their masked antics challenge, mock, tease, and appease the dread forces of the night, of the soul, and of the otherworld that becomes our world on this night of reversible possibilities, inverted roles, and transcendency. In so doing, they are reaffirming death and its place as a part of life.
Trick 'r Treat

Murfreesboro
Halloween Master
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:56 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Murfreesboro » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:45 am

Great post, Hallow1. I have been very interested in the history of Halloween and have been researching it for several years. The information I have uncovered squares perfectly with what you have written.

I would also add that the ancient Aztecs (or whoever it was down in present-day Mexico) seemingly had a Day of the Dead, too, around the same time of year as Halloween. I believe that was a separate development from the European Celtic tradition. I suppose the "dying time" of the year just naturally suggests the sorts of traditions that we associate with Halloween.

As for the "mumming" you mention in Europe--I know that it was common in (pre-Reformation) England for poor children to go "souling" door-to-door on November 2. They would promise to pray for the souls of the dead, and the family would give them a treat called a "soul cake" in exchange for the service. That custom died out after the Protestant Reformation, since Protestants don't believe in Purgatory and consequently don't pray for the souls of the dead. (However, the modern Episcopal Church does recognize All Saints and All Souls Day, just as the Catholics do. They just don't make as big a deal of them.)

User avatar
TheHallow1
Haunt Master
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:20 pm
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by TheHallow1 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:07 pm

Murfreesboro wrote:Great post, Hallow1. I have been very interested in the history of Halloween and have been researching it for several years. The information I have uncovered squares perfectly with what you have written.

I would also add that the ancient Aztecs (or whoever it was down in present-day Mexico) seemingly had a Day of the Dead, too, around the same time of year as Halloween. I believe that was a separate development from the European Celtic tradition. I suppose the "dying time" of the year just naturally suggests the sorts of traditions that we associate with Halloween.)
Makes sense for any culture to have a holiday built around the concept of Death. Death itself is, after all, universal.
Murfreesboro wrote:As for the "mumming" you mention in Europe--I know that it was common in (pre-Reformation) England for poor children to go "souling" door-to-door on November 2. They would promise to pray for the souls of the dead, and the family would give them a treat called a "soul cake" in exchange for the service. That custom died out after the Protestant Reformation, since Protestants don't believe in Purgatory and consequently don't pray for the souls of the dead. (However, the modern Episcopal Church does recognize All Saints and All Souls Day, just as the Catholics do. They just don't make as big a deal of them.)
Completely correct.
Trick 'r Treat

User avatar
Pumpkin_Man
Halloween Master
Posts: 6767
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Pumpkin_Man » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:38 pm

I also liked your post. Thanks for posting it.

Mike

User avatar
oboingo76
Vampire
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:25 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by oboingo76 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:49 am

This is a great topic! I loved TheHallow1's history - thank you for providing it in one place. I've been able to find it in bits and pieces but this summary has been the best so far.

I find myself saddened every year to find out that towns across the country have outlawed trick or treating or delegated alloted times for it (sometimes not even on Halloween). Even at my work, they never use the term "Halloween". They have "fall harvest" parties and festivities, including costume and pumpkin decorating contests, which is just ridiculous to me because we all KNOW it's for Halloween but aren't allowed to put the word in writing.

I have some members of my family who have joined "non-denominational" (aka born again christian) churches and will not participate or allow their kids to participate in Halloween, because it's "Satan's Day". That is truly a term they use.

I am expecting my first (and only) baby and let me tell you, Halloween has always been the biggest holiday of the year in my home. It's bigger than Christmas. I intend to make it even bigger and more fun once my child arrives, who won't be here this Halloween but WILL be here for 2012. It's actually the aspect of parenthood I look forward to most. Yes, I have a sickness, but I'm proud of it! I do see Halloween dying in certain areas but I see it flourishing in others, and it will continue to flourish in my home. If they outlawed Halloween I'd die in prison for refusing to let it go.
"I don't know what's in there, but it's weird and pissed off whatever it is".

User avatar
Pumpkin_Man
Halloween Master
Posts: 6767
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Pumpkin_Man » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:24 pm

I don't see Halloween dieing any time soon, ob, but you are quite correct about 'political correctness' rearing it's ugly head. Where I work, we are not supposed to refer to any of our traditional holidays by their traditional names. Christmas is "Winter Holidays," Easter is "Spring Holiday" Halloween is "Fall Festival" people really get offended if you say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter." The only holiday they didn't change the names of are Thanksgiving and all the leagal patriotic holidays like Independence Day and Presidents Day.

Trick or Treating, unfortunately probably will give way to fear mongering, as more and more parents are really afraid to let their kids knock on the doors of strangers, but I'll never stop giving away candy on Halloween. Most peole in my neck of the woods still call it Halloween, and all the other traditional names are still commonly used in Church and at home, but schools are more and more making problems for us.

Mike


Murfreesboro
Halloween Master
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:56 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Murfreesboro » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:31 pm

Oboingo76, I find myself wondering where you live. Do people actually outlaw Halloween in some places?

There is a monstrously large non-denominational church in our town. I have forgotten how many members they have, but I know they have more than one sanctuary ( I want to say they have five sanctuaries, but that sounds ridiculous). Anyway, they have these huge video screens in the sanctuaries that are not the main ones so everyone can hear the preacher at once. On Easter Sunday they rent out the indoor arena of the local college so they can have one big bash, everyone in the same building. And they have church on Saturday night to accommodate those who can't or don't wish to come on Sunday mornings. I mean, this place is big.

Anyway, I have friends who go there, and they don't do Halloween, or Harry Potter, any of that stuff. When the boys were young enough to be in Cub Scouts, they were picky about the pumpkin-carving activity we often had in October. They would bring colored pins and stick them into the pumpkins, but would not carve them. Their church does have a huge "fall festival" on Halloween night, with many of the common Halloween activities, but of course, no scary stuff.

I have no problem with churches doing stuff like that, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on everyone else. Our own church does a small Trunk or Treat (small because the church is small). I participate in it happily, as long as it doesn't replace TOT. They usually do it on the Weds. closest to Halloween. When Halloween falls on a Weds, I skip the church activity.

Mike, our public school system refers to the Christmas holidays as the "winter break." One year I was startled to see a Christmas tree all decorated in the lobby of my child's middle school in early February. It was decorated in blue and silver balls and tinsel. I was told that it wasn't a Christmas tree, but a winter tree, and so they had left it up all winter. :lol:

Spring break is always spring break, but that makes sense, because Easter is a movable feast and doesn't always fall during spring break, which has to occur more or less midway through spring semester. We do still get Good Friday off. That surprised my cousin who teaches in California.

User avatar
oboingo76
Vampire
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:25 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by oboingo76 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:29 am

To Murfreesboro - I have lived in central NY for 8 years and grew up in Los Angeles (lived there for 26 years). In LA trick or treating is still huge. I travel there for Halloween every couple years and my family and I have a huge trick or treating set up. Where I live now, trick or treating is pretty big (in some parts of town more than others), but we don't have restrictions on trick or treating.

I know some people who live in parts of the midwest and parts of the south where trick or treating is either not allowed at all, or they have scheduled times for it. Sometimes (if Halloween falls on a week day), they'll delegate a weekend night for trick or treating and...... this is even more of a kick in the pants...... they make the hours before dark. I've also collected info about this from people on other message boards who have given me this info about where they live. It's just sad to me that this happens anywhere.

I don't really have a problem with people choosing not to celebrate a holiday like Halloween if it goes against their beliefs. My problem is that with the church MY family members attend, the people preaching against Halloween are using fear mongering to make sure their church members don't celebrate it. (Basically, those who do are going to hell). And in ONLY THIS PARTICULAR CASE (I want to make myself clear that I'm not placing judgement on people I don't know or havent's seen respond to Halloween), they do try to push their beliefs on others and they are very judgemental toward those who choose to celebrate Halloween. They make it a point to visit those of us who participate in the pagan rituals (laughs) on Halloween and roll their eyes and talk down to us for doing it. I had to attend a "baby dedication" for my cousin's baby at the beginning of October at their church, and the pastor made a point during his sermon to talk about how while the christians in his church were focusing on dedicating their children to the lord, others were preparing to participate in satanic rituals and witchcraft that comes with the upcoming holiday. He pointed out that part of dedicating your baby to their church was agreeing that you wouldn't raise that child in such a manner but that you would take the narrow road... blah blah.

The thing about it is this is NOT a small hillbilly church. It's a Calvary Chapel - they have them nationwide. (I almost want to call it a chain but somehow that doesn't sound right). Now this was just one location and one pastor so again I don't want anyone to take this as me making generalizations about all non-denominational christians, but he was SOOOO angry I couldn't help but chuckle and wonder how he is taken seriously as someone who is supposed to be "at peace with the lord". It made me sad that so many people take his word for it when it comes to how they should live their lives and what they should believe.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded explanation but that's the background I had.

Mike - I hear you about the holidays. It's so silly too, because at my work (which is a world wide company), our US holiday calendar (the one that tells us what holidays we have off, paid) says "Christmas" for Dec 25. Yet they still run around saying "the winter Holiday". It's so blatantly silly I get embarrassed for us. The even funnier thing is that our company makes it a point to celebrate diversity and learn about holidays other than Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc. They send out communications about the history and traditions of Jewish and Moslem holidays, gay pride events, etc. I have no problem at all with this so please don't take it the wrong way, but if we are encouraged to learn about and celebrate such holidays, why are we so hush hush about Christmas, Halloween and Easter? It's so inconsistent.
"I don't know what's in there, but it's weird and pissed off whatever it is".

Murfreesboro
Halloween Master
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:56 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Murfreesboro » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:52 am

I hear you loud and clear re the inconsistency of observing/acknowledging/respecting everyone's holidays except your own.

I have spent my whole life living in various parts of the South (MS, TN, AR, TX, GA, VA), and I can honestly say that I have never once heard of Halloween's being "outlawed" in any of those places. Throughout my life, it has been fairly common for TOT to be switched to Saturday night if it falls on a Sunday; but the last few years, even that decision has been left to the discretion of parents and neighbors. Consequently, when Halloween falls on a Sunday, we frequently get two nights of TOT out of it, :lol:

I have heard that some places "schedule" TOT before nightfall, though I have never lived in one of those communities. I wouldn't like that at all, not at all. The night and the street masquerade and the flickering pumpkins in the dark are what it's all about for me. I didn't even like when daylight savings was pushed into November a couple of years back, because of what I feared it might do to Halloween. However, around here, we are so close to the Eastern time zone that we are getting dark quite early on Oct. 31, even with daylight savings.

I haven't personally heard any preacher sounding so angry, as you describe your family's minister, but I don't doubt that some of them are. I know there are most certainly fundamentalist Christians who are very opposed to the observance of Halloween. Three or four years ago I got a flier on my door from some such source--don't know which church or group--ranting against Halloween as the Devil's Holiday. I laughed it off and never got another one. So I do know those feelings are out there.

User avatar
oboingo76
Vampire
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:25 am
What is the highest number?: 10992

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by oboingo76 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:44 am

I love that there are others out there who thought immediately of Halloween when they pushed back daylight savings to November. That's the first thing I thought of, we used to bite at the bit just waiting for dark as kids so we could start TOTing. It seemed like a lifetime waiting for 5pm to arrive.

With regard to outlawing Halloween in certain places, it wasn't really outlawing the holiday, but making TOTing illegal. As I recall, there was one specific town in the midwest where a child had been murdered on Halloween in the early 90's, so they made it illegal and put an early curfew in place on Halloween night.

Overall, I'm just glad there are others out there like me (as I've found on this board) who will NEVER let Halloween go!
"I don't know what's in there, but it's weird and pissed off whatever it is".

User avatar
Pumpkin_Man
Halloween Master
Posts: 6767
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Pumpkin_Man » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:02 pm

I have absoultely no problem with anyone celebrating the holidays that celebrate their own culture. There's nothing wrong with the Jewish celebration of Hanukah, or the Muslem's celebration of Ramadon. I have no beef against passover or Kwanza or anything else. I also have no beef with Yule, Winter Solstice or any other Wiccan or Peagan celebration. Why do some of them get offended if I celebrate Christmas and Easter? Why is is such an insult to some of them if I go around saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter>" If they wished me a "Happy Yule" or "Happy Hanakuh," I wouldn't be offended at all.

That's where I have a problem. It's the being made to feel bad or even stupid because of my own culture, sort of like I'm some kind of a 'bigot' because I prefer to celebrate my own cultural holidays, and identify with my own cultural identity. I have as much right to that as anyone else, Christians have as much right to Christmas as all other groups have to their own religious holidays and observances. All I want is for that to be recognized.

Mike


User avatar
Spookymufu
Halloween Master
Posts: 9373
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:42 pm
What is the highest number?: 10992
Location: Somewhere in south Texas
Contact:

Re: What is happening to Halloween?

Post by Spookymufu » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:47 pm

^^^ I'm with you on that Mike, 100%
http://theyard.netii.net/
"You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar but if you pull their wings off they'll eat whatever you give them!"

Post Reply