Halloween Discussion Forums, Costumes, Horror!

Murf - I'm sorry to hear about your son's condition. It sounds like you have a lot of love and compassion for him, and it's understandable to feel frustrated with the impact it has had on his life. At least he is able to work, and he has the support of his family to help him get through this.

MauEvig - I know that I'm the new guy around here, and you barely know me, but I would like to hear your story if you decide to post it here. It takes courage to even consider sharing your personal story, and it's important to only share what you feel comfortable with. If you only want to talk with Murf privately I completely understand and respect your choice. If, or when you're ready to share, I'm here to listen.

I know that it can be difficult for some people to discuss mental illness, for the longest time there was a certain view from society that people with any mental disorders were something that you just didn't talk about, and the people that live with those conditions were often misunderstood and mistreated.

It's sad to think of how many innocent people with mental illness, or other disorders must have been tortured and murdered in the past in the name of religious justice. In those days both doctors and religious people didn't really understand, or want to understand what mental illness was, and they immediately thought it was demonic possession. When you think of some of those people being sent to mental asylums and dying there scared and alone, no wonder you hear about so many old abandoned asylums that are haunted, I guess their spirits can't move on.

A similar type of persecution happened during the Salem witch trials, when innocent people were accused of witchcraft and executed, because people back then were dominated by irrational fear and they had no understanding. Thankfully, today medical professionals and churches are aware of the different types of disorders, and when a patient is diagnosed they won't be confused with a actual case of demonic possession.

I absolutely agree with you MauEvig that many cases are overdiagnosed these days, and the reason for this is simple, the pharmaceutical companies are only concerned with profits. Before anyone tells me that I don't know what I'm talking about, trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I have a relative that works in the pharmaceutical industry and he told me exactly how it works. The doctors are in bed with the companies, the more patients they diagnose, the more profits there are for everyone involved, and this isn't just in the mental illness area of the field, it's across the whole medical field. Medications for every illness you can think of are being handed out like candy, well, at least for the people that can afford it.

Yes, there are legitimate cases diagnosed every day, and it's good that those people are getting the help they need, but when you say that a kid has a disorder and put him on pills just for showing basic human emotion, that's wrong. It's the same thing if a kid has his pet die, of course he's going to be sad about it, but that doesn't mean that you diagnose him with depression and put him on suicide watch. It disgusts me that they are getting some young people hooked on meds when they don't even need them, and there are people out there that actually do need the meds but they can't afford them.

I believe a lot of young people got hooked on opioids because they were prescribed them when they got their wisdom teeth removed. All three of mine were prescribed some heavy duty opioid (oxycontin? I think) for pain relief when they had their wisdom teeth out, but none of them took those pills. They toughed it out with ibuprofen.

And yesterday morning at church, I was talking with the minister's wife about her debilitating migraines. She told me acupuncture works best for her, but it's very expensive, and her insurance won't cover it. It will cover only pills.

Teachers came at me about both my boys in grade school, wanting to get them classified as ADHD. I refused. I remembered how, when I was little, people were always trying to bribe me with money to sit still and be quiet. I never once got the money. I just couldn't do it back then. But I was always a good student and actually had an unusual power of concentration, which my husband thinks might have been a coping mechanism for ADHD. Idk. I just don't think every child needs to be drugged to sit still. (And it is most often the boys.) Sometimes I think the real problem is trying to shoehorn everybody into the same pattern of education.

HH, you mentioned the Salem Witch Trials and the role mental illness might have played there. Are you familiar with the theory that ergot poisoning might have played a role? Apparently ergot is a toxic fungus that grows on rye during rainy seasons. Once it's in the grain, it can't be processed or cooked out, so even eating the bread made from it is toxic and can cause hallucinations. Someone started wondering about this because there was a statement about a possessed dog at Salem. Why would the dog act possessed? Well, it might if it had eaten something toxic.

I thought this was interesting because it acknowledged that something strange and inexplicable might really have been happening at Salem. The people behind this theory believe that ergot poisoning might have been behind some of the witch scares in Europe, too. Idk. It's an intriguing theory to me.

Honestly it takes me time to get to know people and trust people, but I may yet feel comfortable sharing my story at some point. I just wanted to give my two cents on mental illness, and then realized that I have a bad habit of oversharing.

As for the Salem Witch trials, it wouldn't surprise me if there was more than one thing going on. Though the temporary mass hysteria might have been brought on by the Ergot. Who'd think moldy bread would bring on such a disastrous turn of events? But I do imagine any survivors would have had PTSD from the events, and I'm certain MANY people were ashamed of what had happened after the fact. But I don't have the perspective of someone living in the Puritan days, so I wouldn't know. Makes sense it would have happened in Europe too though, as the witch trials seemed to go on all over the place at some point.

Of course, people who suffer from mental illnesses were more than likely thought to be possessed long before we had the science and technology to delve into that stuff. If mental illness contributed to any mass murders, I feel like it would have been an isolated incident, while moldy bread seems like something that would contribute to several different instances in different times, hence the different witch trials at different times and places. But Salem is one of the more famous...or arguably infamous accounts of it happening.

I do want to make a quick comment about pharmaceuticals though. I do think people have been quick to push and over medicate in certain circumstances. While I do think in some, or perhaps many cases it is necessary, I don't think it's always necessary to push certain kinds of drugs. There are alternative therapies out there, but I think it all depends on what works best for certain people. I know I've had things like anti depressants pushed on me multiple times. The truth is, sometimes life is just hard and no amount of medication is going to make it any easier. I've learned to just enjoy the things that make me happy. I've also got my boyfriend and my cats to keep me sane. It helps to have a good support system. But I do wish people would stop over diagnosing things. In the 90's it was ADD, what they now call ADHD, nowadays it's Autism. What's next? I'm not saying neither of those things exist, because they 100% do and as someone who works in Special Education I can attest to this, but I feel like pushing those diagnoses instead of seeking out what's REALLY wrong with the person not ONLY invalidates the disorders, but also throws an individual through unnecessary loops if they are wrongly diagnosed. Sometimes trauma can mimic the symptoms. So I think it's important to treat the person, rather than jump on the next mental illness bandwagon because of the new "drugs and therapies" available for it.

I've talked with other parents and they have told me that a lot of teachers try to push the idea that almost every kid today has ADHD, I know that trend started in the 90s and back then there was maybe 1 or 2 kids in the whole school that were diagnosed, and they were probably real cases, but now there is a alarming number of kids being diagnosed with ADHD and other disorders, and most of them are just normal kids.

I think that kids need to have individualized attention and not be labeled as having a disorder just because they don't fit into the traditional mold of education. I also think that teachers and parents should explore alternative solutions instead of immediately resorting to medication. Every child has unique strengths and weaknesses, and it's important for educators to adapt their teaching methods to ensure that every kid can succeed in their own way.

Regarding Salem, I had not heard that theory before, it must be something that came around in the last few years. It's certainly a interesting theory, the idea that a toxic substance in the food supply could lead to hallucinations and delusions certainly seems plausible. Back then people wouldn't have been aware of such things, and since ergot is a fungus, it's possible that people could have eaten mushrooms or other plants that would have affected them.

The religious fervor in Salem back then was out of control, and while mental illness is a possible explanation for the strange behavior witnessed during the trials, there were many reasons why the belief in witches was so widespread. Many people in Salem had a very limited understanding of medicine and science, and they often attributed unexplained phenomena to supernatural causes, even medical conditions were misunderstood by people. For example, if someone was having epileptic seizures it would appear that they were possessed to the people back then.

Some of the accusers had personal grudges against the accused, and used the trials as a means of settling scores.There is no evidence that any of the accused people were actual witches, and the idea of witches was largely a product of superstition and fear. The accusations of witchcraft were often based on hearsay, speculation, and arbitrary criteria, such as unusual behavior, physical abnormalities, or unexplained events, and many of the people accused of witchcraft were innocent victims that were unjustly executed based on false accusations.

By the way, the possessed dog that you mentioned could have had rabies.

Lol, yes, rabies would have been a possibility, too. Though I think rabies was pretty well known in Europe for centuries. It probably contributed to the werewolf mythology.

I don't doubt that there was a combination of things happening in Salem. I've also seen documentaries that traced how property got seized during the witch trials. IOW, some people could have been targeted because they had what others wanted.

I think we've seen a recent example of what fear can do to a society with the Covid pandemic. Covid was a real disease and real people died from it, but the fear of it got overblown, IMO. I'll never forget reading about the way the occasional maskless person would be ganged up on in stores, or the seemingly arbitrary way TPTB decided which businesses were essential and which weren't.

One thing about Salem that interests me is how anachronistic it was. By the 1690s, nobody in England was worried about witches. It was the Age of Reason, Isaac Newton was revered like Einstein is now, and political philosophers were writing the treatises that would form the basis of the American Revolution eighty years later. The Puritans in New England were living in such a backwater. It was as if the early Renaissance had never ended for them. But one good thing evidently came from it. According to one documentary I own, the American insistence on "innocent until proven guilty" came out of remorse following the Salem witch trials. In English common law of the time, the reverse was true. Accused people had to prove their innocence, which is much harder to do.

Murfreesboro wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 5:19 pm I think we've seen a recent example of what fear can do to a society with the Covid pandemic. Covid was a real disease and real people died from it, but the fear of it got overblown, IMO. I'll never forget reading about the way the occasional maskless person would be ganged up on in stores, or the seemingly arbitrary way TPTB decided which businesses were essential and which weren't.

To be honest, I don't even know if I should get started...or even where I'd begin with this.
It might sound ironic saying this on a Halloween forum, but I HATED the masks. At least, THESE kinds of masks, Halloween masks are fine. Something totally different. I agree with you on all accounts honestly. I think they did overreact with this virus. When I finally did catch covid in August of last year, two years behind the peak of the pandemic, it just felt like a bad cold. I had flu viruses worse than this.
I got into arguments with friends over the masking thing, but to be fair they're much more liberal leaning.

Headless, I think I have mixed feelings about that. I do think society is quick to over label and over medicate kids, that much is certain. I agree with you on most accounts, but I don't think a diagnosis should be discarded completely. For SOME people it can be affirming, and for others it can feel like being judged at best and sunk into a proverbial blackhole at worst. It REALLY depends on the individual person and what their needs are.

Everyone has some quirks about them, I've yet to meet a single person who is 100% normal. It only becomes seen as a disorder when it interferes with everyday functioning, or even functioning in the classroom.

That said, I don't think medication is the end all be all for everything and everyone. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not. It's up to the sole discretion of the individual. But I think society likes to put people into boxes, and that's a problem. There's nothing wrong with people who have Autism or ADHD, but I do have an issue with over diagnosing.

I guess I haven't seen so much of the ADHD being over diagnosed though these days as the Autism, but maybe it depends on where you live. I work with kids who I am very confident have ADHD. I work with kids that I am very confident have Autism. However, it's not my place to give someone a diagnosis, it's my job to help them succeed in the classroom. Knowing what they have helps me to help them with what they need. Although similar in some ways, someone with ADHD might need help with staying on task, while someone with Autism might need help calming down. Not that someone with ADHD wouldn't have a melt down, and trust me, they can.

I actually think it's more of an issue that ADHD isn't taken seriously enough. Autism is getting a LOT of attention these days and everyone takes it seriously and addresses it. Even most trainings in Sped are Autism focused, though with Autism diagnoses on the rise, it's no surprise. I don't want to forget that there are other things out there, and I hate to see something like ADHD be treated like it's not real or something someone can just get over. It doesn't work like that.

But do I agree that we should see people and not a label? Absolutely. There are real cases, and the 1 or 2 kids probably are, but I think you may be right that it's being over used on normal kids who might just struggle in certain areas. The trick is knowing the difference. But sometimes a diagnosis is, unfortunately, the difference between whether someone gets help or not, gets that IEP or 504 or not. It's even worse with girls who tend to fly under the radar in both cases. It's getting better in some ways, and worse in others.

Murf - I saw your post in another thread about your eye condition, I was wondering how it happened?

Salem - I agree, the Salem trials seem so out of place in the context of the time period, it's almost as if they were living in a completely different world. You are right about how the trials came to be important to American law, it's just a shame that the change had to come out of the atrocities committed during the trials. But it's a good reminder that even in the darkest of times, there can be positive change.

Meds - While medication may be helpful for some, it may not be the solution for everyone. I think that professionals need to be aware of this and provide individualized care for each person they work with, and to recognize that a diagnosis can be helpful for some people, while for others it may feel like a negative label. The problem arises when diagnoses are given too readily without proper evaluation and consideration of the individual's needs. I also agree that society tends to put people into boxes, and this can be damaging to individuals who are struggling with certain issues. I think that society should treat people as individuals, and not just by a label or diagnosis, and that will mean better outcomes and support for those who need it.

The pandemic - I do agree that there might have been some overreaction to the pandemic, and while it was a real and serious disease, the fear surrounding it did lead to some extreme behaviors and decisions.

The decision on which businesses were deemed essential was something that affected us personally, as I have discussed with Murf before, both of the businesses we own were hit hard during the first month of the lockdown, as we had to remain closed and had no customers. It wasn't until we were allowed to team up with delivery services and operate in a limited capacity that we were able to get going again, and if it wasn't for that we would have had to close down for sure.

I think that it's important to recognize that many local independent businesses play a essential role in people's lives and livelihoods, and shutting them down led to a ripple effect of negative consequences, and unfortunately many of those businesses eventually went out of business because they couldn't cover their rent. The same thing would have happened to us but we actually own the buildings that our businesses are in, so I'm thankful that we survived.

I understand why Wal Mart was considered essential, because customers could get almost everything they needed in one place, and by limiting the number of people that were allowed in, it reduced the contact people had with each other, even if you had to wait a few hours to get in sometimes.

About masks, I understand the frustration with the masks and the pandemic response. Believe me, you don't want to know how hard it was to get a fussy 3 year old to wear a mask.

I know the masks we had to wear were stifling and uncomfortable, but it was a real disease, and while many people had mild cases or no symptoms at all, we must also recognize that not everyone had the same experience and some people had severe cases or even died from it, and we have to remember that even if we ourselves were not severely affected, we still have a responsibility to protect those who are more vulnerable, and wearing masks and taking precautions was one way to do this.

The divisiveness and hostility towards those who chose not to wear masks or held different opinions on the pandemic was concerning, and we should remember that everyone has their own reasons for their actions and instead of attacking each other, we should work together to find solutions, and support each other while also maintaining our individual freedoms and rights.

I get why Walmart was considered essential, too, but I heard about situations where, say, a liquor store could remain open, but a clothing store couldn't. I think that happened in NYC, not sure what the policy was in our town. And in CA, a restaurant owner was complaining that she couldn't feed customers on her outdoor patio, yet a movie in progress was feeding their cast and crew outside right next door. I presume they'd all been tested, etc, but I understood her frustration. Up in KY, the police chased a congregation away on Easter Sunday morning. I think they even scattered glass in the parking lot. Yet that church had planned an outdoor gathering, too. Our own church shut down, even on Easter, because both our ministers had compromising health conditions. I underdtood. I felt a little guilty about it, though.

Masks: I don't want to judge anybody for wearing/not wearing a mask, even now. I think the cloth masks are mostly a placebo, though.

My eyes: about 11-12 years ago, I noticed a distortion in my vision in my left eye. After many dr visits it was determined I had ocular histoplasmosis, a boomerang disease (like shingles after chicken pox) that you can't get unless you've had histoplasmosis at some point (that's the flu-like thing you can get from birds). I never knew I'd had it, but the fact that I have this now proves that at some point, I did. Most people with ocular histo never know they've got it, because it usually sets up in peripheral vision. Only about 10% get it dead center like me. That's probably because I was extremely nearsighted (prior to cataract surgery in 2019), and my retina is very thin and overstretched in the center, as is the case with all very nearsighted people. Anyway, as happens with macular degeneration, ocular histo patients are prone to retina bleeds, which destroy vision where they happen. And like MD patients, I've had a steroid shot straight into my eye to stop that (only once, though, unlike MD patients, who have to have them all the time). Because I have an irreversible blind spot in the dead center of my left eye, I cannot read an eye chart with it, so I am legally blind. However, my peripheral vision is fine, and I can still see tons more than I can't see with it. My brain has learned to ignore the blind spot on the left side, and my right eye fills in for it. I see it only when I think about it.

You need stereoscopic vision for depth perception, and since I no longer have that, I can no longer perceive the 3-D images that we were discussing in the other thread. I've learned that depth perception doesn't work exactly as I used to think it did. I still have perspective (cars farther away look smaller than the ones up close). But I have trouble judging distances very close to my body--threading a needle, judging how deep the water is in the glass, how close my hand is to the mailbox beside my car, that sort of thing. Basically, anything within arm's reach I am prone to misjudge.

I'm sorry to hear about that Murf, thankfully you still have one good eye, and you can still do the things that you enjoy.

I know a older gentleman in his 80s that has a similar issue, I don't remember the name of the condition, but he also has no depth perception, and he told me that he struggles with the simplest things like reaching for a door knob, eating with a fork, and putting toothpaste on a toothbrush. He also has issues with stairs, going up is fine, but going down the stairs is terrifying for him because the steps look like a flat sidewalk to him, so he can't tell where to step.

Man, that story about the glass in the parking lot is just nuts. I know that I heard on the news of various measures used to repel crowds from gathering, and some of them seemed a bit extreme, but I guess we should be glad that it wasn't worse, as I remember hearing that in some countries they would shoot people if they went out during lockdown.

I have noticed in the news that every few weeks we hear about another possible wave coming, and the threat of another pandemic is always near. I'm honestly not sure if it's true, or if it's just a way to make people stay scared.

I think that around here, most people are really done with the lockdown thing. I see a few folks wearing masks, but it's far from universal.

I'm not yet as bad off as your friend is. I do watch stairs, but that's partly because my ankles hurt all the time. I don't know if I have arthritis in them or what. I still walk over a mile every day in my neighborhood, which is actually quite a pleasure to me, and I've met lots of neighbors that way.

When I was a child I wore orthopedic shoes because something was wrong with my ankles, and I was supposed to do that forever. But when I entered 7th grade I rebelled. Those shoes were very expensive and ugly as sin. For decades I got away with it, but maybe now I need to go back to them.

Wow, a lot to catch up on here!

I'm so sorry to hear about your eye condition, Murf. I'm glad you're still able to see, even if you struggle with depth perception. I understand that can be a challenge.
I'm just plain ol' near sighted myself and wear glasses, which I probably need to update at some point but I haven't worked up the nerve to do so. I'm just too busy with life.

I'm not sure what else to contribute as far as masks and essential businesses are concerned, but I do agree with you all that the entire thing was just a big mess. It was messed up to reprimand people for choosing not to wear a mask and it was ridiculous forcing people to wear one just to get essential groceries. The whole thing was just plain stupid. Those who were concerned about getting sick were certainly welcome to wear one and I wouldn't have judged them for it, but I feel like the opposite courtesy should have been applied.

Still, I started working as an aide when the pandemic started and we had to wear them. It sucked. The stupid thing made it hard to breathe especially going up stairs. I agree the cloth masks were a placebo and I think they still are. People claim they don't get sick wearing them, but I think a lot of it is due to them probably just having a healthy immune system or were fortunate enough that the virus just didn't get to them yet. Multiple studies have shown that masks weren't that effective. You have to wear a very SPECIFIC kind of mask for it to do anything, and even then you have to wear it and change it properly.

You probably breathed in more germs touching and adjusting your mask throughout the day, taking it off for lunch and leaving it sitting on the table than you would have going without. And I dare say the best thing for your lungs is probably some fresh air, and I think starving your lungs of that did much more harm than good. I have a feeling 20 years from now or so they'll "reveal" how the masks were bad for you long term all along.

Masking in my opinion, should ONLY be reserved if you are actually SICK and not meant for healthy people. In Japan they do it to be polite if you have a cold or the flu. And that's how it should be.
But I'm not going to judge someone for choosing to wear a mask, I just want the same courtesy in return for choosing NOT to wear one. I'll only wear one of I'm sick or feel like I'm coming down with something.

Anyway, I'm exhausted from my PSA. So I'll end the mask rant there unless someone else has anything to add to it that wasn't already added.

As for essential businesses, I'm not sure what to say. Why WOULD an alcohol shop be allowed but a clothing store not? Alcohol isn't essential, though I realize people might have turned to drinking during the pandemic to get through it, it's still not an essential necessity. Clothing is. That just made no sense. And restaurants technically weren't as essential as grocery stores, but technically speaking, going to out to eat should be a privelege not a necessity though I suppose since they serve food...I dunno. They really need to get their priorities straight.
Personally I think places like grocery stores and doctors offices and veterinary services and the like should have been opened, and anything NOT selling necessities should have been closed. And restaurants could have been given a kick back if they donated their food supplies to help out. We were sorely unprepared for this.

I know a lot of people are saying covid is going around again. There's theories about other viruses that could be being developed that would make covid look like a walk in the park. I'd hate to think what would happen.

And yes I heard in the Philippines about how people got shot if they tried to leave their homes. It's insane. I found myself more terrified of government control than I was of the virus. There's other things that went on that I shan't get into.

Agree also that medication should only be used on a case by case basis, this pushing of pharmaceuticals is wrong in my opinion. But I also think that people should be treated as individuals and a diagnosis shouldn't define them, even if they do have it. Some people though, like those who have Autism have created a community for themselves, a sort of brotherhood if you will, but at the same time say "If you met one person with autism, then you've met one person with autism." Yet it feels to me like, having this attitude "the autism community believes blah blah blah..." contradicts that sentiment. Some people who have a neurodivergence might actually want a cure, some are happy the way they are. And again, I think treatments should be on a case by case basis. So I do agree that people should be treated on an individual basis.

That said, I've had medication pushed on me many times in my life. I hate it. I did finally try anti depressants. And you know what? They didn't help a bit. Every single time I tried a different kind, it was the same thing. It just made my anxiety worse. So I don't think it's a solution for everyone, nor should it be pushed on people. Sometimes life is just rough, the best thing you can do is just be supportive. Now I only take anxiety medication when I need it, but I try not to rely on it too much. Just as a last resort.